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TOPIC: No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI

No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 11 Oct 2017 15:18 #1

  • Bodie
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I can't get my 2002 350 MAG MPI to start. Several times in the spring when we weren't using the boat a lot I had trouble getting it started but eventually it would go after cranking for a while and playing with the throttle when it caught. The last time this happened I pulled off the distributor cap and noticed there were deposits on the contact posts and after cleaning them the engine started right away. After that the engine always started well all summer as long as it wasn't left more than a couple of weeks between uses.

This time, after not using the boat for about 4 weeks and being unable to start it, I found the distributor contacts were again crusted with a brownish deposit. Cleaning them actually had a negative effect: before scraping off the deposits the engine would catch briefly but not run, afterwards there was no response at all. Thinking that I had somehow damaged the cap I replaced both it and the rotor. No joy, although it did fire briefly a couple of times...

I've since confirmed there is a spark from the coil at the distributor, there is fuel under pressure in the system by opening and pressing on the shraeder valve on the bridge across the fuel rails. I checked and remade all connections on the ignition switch and pulled and reinstalled the spark plug wires on the spark plugs. The kill switch is operational: flipping it down and up while the ignition key is on activates the fuel pump.

The only thing I haven't yet tried is pulling the plugs, but it seems to me they probably wouldn't all fail at the same time and create a no-start condition. I did try to remove a couple but was unable to get my spark plug socket far enough past the risers and onto the plug firmly enough to loosen them.

Am I missing something?

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Paul
2002 2859 Ciera Classic, 350 MAG MPI, Bravo II
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2005 GMC Sierra 2500HD, 6.6L Duramax/Allison

No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 11 Oct 2017 15:58 #2

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I think you are having fuel bleed down issues. Over time the internal regulator in the fuel pump will bleed down. And then will take time to rebuild the pressure. This is also symptomatic of a pump on it's way out. You should check the fuel filter, fuel pressure, and the specified leak down time. Happens all the time with autos, too. Let them sit for a week or so and it takes a few seconds to start

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No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 11 Oct 2017 23:51 #3

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I forgot to mention I also replaced the fuel filter before i tried to start it and afterwards uncapped the schraeder valve on the fuel rail and pressed it...there was lots of pressure at that point.

My son-in-law suggested there may be a problem with the "choke coil" making it hard to start when it's cold outside so I dropped a heater into the engine bay for the afternoon. I just tried to start it again and it sputtered more than it has but it still won't start.

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Paul
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No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 12 Oct 2017 01:07 #4

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Bodie wrote: I forgot to mention I also replaced the fuel filter before i tried to start it and afterwards uncapped the schraeder valve on the fuel rail and pressed it...there was lots of pressure at that point.

My son-in-law suggested there may be a problem with the "choke coil" making it hard to start when it's cold outside so I dropped a heater into the engine bay for the afternoon. I just tried to start it again and it sputtered more than it has but it still won't start.


There is no choke on an MPI engine.

I would verify spark at the plugs. Start by using a timing light on each plug wire to see if it flashes. Then check the plugs themself.

If you have spark, fuel and air that leaves timing.

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Mike

No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 12 Oct 2017 01:09 #5

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Can you elaborate on the issue?

Engine turns over, correct?
Will not start or not stay running?

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1997 Maxum 2400 SCR 5.7LX Bravo II

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No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 12 Oct 2017 03:23 #6

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He knows there's no choke, he was talking about the idle air control.

To clarify, the engine turns over, occasionally sputters, but will not run.

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Paul
2002 2859 Ciera Classic, 350 MAG MPI, Bravo II
2013 Tandem TuffTrailer
2005 GMC Sierra 2500HD, 6.6L Duramax/Allison

No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 12 Oct 2017 04:20 #7

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While searching for IAC mentions in the forums I came across a post I started some time ago about my engine "cutting out" while idling, in gear and out. It's like someone turns off the key for 1 second then back on again. It's never stalled altogether but makes me think it may be related. Suggestions for that problem included replacing the IAC, poor connections at the ignition switch or coil and a faulty kill switch.

I never followed up on that issue but have checked the connections at the ignition switch and the kill switch seems solid. Tomorrow I'll be checking the coil wires, pulling the plugs and looking for an IAC to buy.

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Paul
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No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 12 Oct 2017 04:28 #8

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If I remember correctly, a faulty vacuum connection, hose, or switch can wreak havoc on an MPI system. I would check those items as well as the suggestion to see if each plug is firing. And then there is the possibility of the timing being off or failing to advance and retard as required. Of course that is usually an ECU issue.

Greg

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No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 12 Oct 2017 11:24 #9

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Bodie wrote: While searching for IAC mentions in the forums I came across a post I started some time ago about my engine "cutting out" while idling, in gear and out. It's like someone turns off the key for 1 second then back on again. It's never stalled altogether but makes me think it may be related. Suggestions for that problem included replacing the IAC, poor connections at the ignition switch or coil and a faulty kill switch.

I never followed up on that issue but have checked the connections at the ignition switch and the kill switch seems solid. Tomorrow I'll be checking the coil wires, pulling the plugs and looking for an IAC to buy.


Typically the IAC will not prevent an engine from starting but stay running at idle. Have you tried starting it with the throttle advanced enough to maintain about 1000 rpms. If this keeps the engine running the IAC would be the issue.

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No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 12 Oct 2017 19:16 #10

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Might be a good idea to put a gauge on the fuel rail. It's hard to tell the difference between 20 PSI and 48 PSI with a finger. One is a no start the other runs fine. It sounds like your thinking ignition problem. They usually crop up after a hot restart attempt, but not always. Does it have a good spark at the plugs when you try to cold start??

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No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 12 Oct 2017 20:11 #11

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On some systems the signal for timing is generated inside the distributor. The ecm reads this signal for rpm.

If the ecm doesn't see this signal, it may not pulse the injectors, causing a lack of fuel even though the rail is pressured up.

The typical failure, if a HEI type ignition, is the ICM, ignition control module, which lives in the bottom of the distributor. It can also be the reluctor, which supplies a raw signal to the ICM.

I'd check the pressure etc first, but keep it in mind if you can't find anything else.



Chay

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No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 12 Oct 2017 21:29 #12

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SKUA 28 Contessa wrote: Might be a good idea to put a gauge on the fuel rail. It's hard to tell the difference between 20 PSI and 48 PSI with a finger. One is a no start the other runs fine. It sounds like your thinking ignition problem. They usually crop up after a hot restart attempt, but not always. Does it have a good spark at the plugs when you try to cold start??


Being a port injected engine I would think even low fuel pressure would allow it to start but lack top end performance.

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Mike

No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 12 Oct 2017 21:30 #13

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cfoss1 wrote: On some systems the signal for timing is generated inside the distributor. The ecm reads this signal for rpm.

If the ecm doesn't see this signal, it may not pulse the injectors, causing a lack of fuel even though the rail is pressured up.

The typical failure, if a HEI type ignition, is the ICM, ignition control module, which lives in the bottom of the distributor. It can also be the reluctor, which supplies a raw signal to the ICM.

I'd check the pressure etc first, but keep it in mind if you can't find anything else.



Chay


If this was the case I don't think he would be getting spark either.

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Mike

No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 12 Oct 2017 21:58 #14

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I had exact same problem on my 2002 350 MPI.
It turned out to be a wet connection on the oil pressure sensor. It is located on the lower port side of the engine. I unplugged it, blew out the connections with canned air, sprayed the contacts with contact cleaner, then put it back together. The boat fired right up.
Cheap test before going into further diagnostics

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No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 13 Oct 2017 01:01 #15

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B95054 wrote: I had exact same problem on my 2002 350 MPI.
It turned out to be a wet connection on the oil pressure sensor. It is located on the lower port side of the engine. I unplugged it, blew out the connections with canned air, sprayed the contacts with contact cleaner, then put it back together. The boat fired right up.
Cheap test before going into further diagnostics


Possibly but I would think that your boat would not start from what you described was preventing the fuel pump from operating. The OP claims to have fuel pressure at the fuel rail.

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No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 13 Oct 2017 01:29 #16

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Nope I was getting full fuel pressure. I purchased a gauge and it was bang on what the specification was (I forget the psi but did look it up at the time).

If there is fuel pressure then check spark. If there is spark then start looking into compression. It is one of the three - you just need to isolate which one.

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No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 16 Oct 2017 01:34 #17

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I'm a little embarrassed to say the resolution to this was plug wires and plugs, mostly the coil wire we think, but I had left replacing the plugs for too long. Unfortunately once the engine started running it over heated. The raw water impellor had self destructed during the many attempts to start the engine during troubleshooting. When it finally started there was a short screech from the serpentine belt while it tried to turn the pump and the result in the pump housing was a rubber nub with no vanes. Runs great now but a little warm on the starboard side so now I get to search for little chunks of black rubber in the raw water system.

Thanks for all the great suggestions

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No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 16 Oct 2017 04:10 #18

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Glad to hear she running again. Look in the power steering cooler and the inlet side of the heat exchanger if equiped for impeller fragments. Also depending on how hot she got you may want to check the exhaust shutters.

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No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 16 Oct 2017 11:34 #19

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Bodie wrote: I'm a little embarrassed to say the resolution to this was plug wires and plugs, mostly the coil wire we think, but I had left replacing the plugs for too long. Unfortunately once the engine started running it over heated. The raw water impellor had self destructed during the many attempts to start the engine during troubleshooting. When it finally started there was a short screech from the serpentine belt while it tried to turn the pump and the result in the pump housing was a rubber nub with no vanes. Runs great now but a little warm on the starboard side so now I get to search for little chunks of black rubber in the raw water system.

Thanks for all the great suggestions


Live and learn; at least you are making progress. B)

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No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 16 Oct 2017 23:08 #20

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T-stat housing for pieces.

If they get past there, the transfer ports between the mani and elbow.

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No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 17 Oct 2017 16:01 #21

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Nauti Mike wrote:

SKUA 28 Contessa wrote: Might be a good idea to put a gauge on the fuel rail. It's hard to tell the difference between 20 PSI and 48 PSI with a finger. One is a no start the other runs fine. It sounds like your thinking ignition problem. They usually crop up after a hot restart attempt, but not always. Does it have a good spark at the plugs when you try to cold start??


Being a port injected engine I would think even low fuel pressure would allow it to start but lack top end performance.


Nope sometimes you'll get a sputter, but mostly if it's 25 or less it won't start

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No-start condition 2002 350 MAG MPI 17 Oct 2017 16:13 #22

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SKUA 28 Contessa wrote:

Nauti Mike wrote:

SKUA 28 Contessa wrote: Might be a good idea to put a gauge on the fuel rail. It's hard to tell the difference between 20 PSI and 48 PSI with a finger. One is a no start the other runs fine. It sounds like your thinking ignition problem. They usually crop up after a hot restart attempt, but not always. Does it have a good spark at the plugs when you try to cold start??


Being a port injected engine I would think even low fuel pressure would allow it to start but lack top end performance.


Nope sometimes you'll get a sputter, but mostly if it's 25 or less it won't start


Not going to say you're wrong just don't understand why that would be. This is port injected not direct injected so not a need to overcome cylinder pressure. Also the injectors are electrically activated so as long as the injector opens I would think fuel would spray into the intake runner.

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