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TOPIC: Trophy Pro 2052 battery setup

Trophy Pro 2052 battery setup Apr 15, 2017 12:05 AM #1

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So I'm still getting my boat ready for the season after finally replacing the steering cable and helm. Aside from other issues (no scanner), I've discovered the boat has a battery switch for 1 and 2 batteries but both of them are Starting batteries. Of course, I want to have a deep cycle to handle the electronics - an older Raymarine C70 with 4K Radar.

Worse, I discovered that the Raymarine electronics only operate under battery 1. There is no power to the multi-function display under batter 2.

I thought Battery Bank 1 was for starting and Battery Bank 2 was for running the electronics/navigation lighting (which is where I intended to put the deep cycle). I really don't believe the solution is to put a deep cycle under Battery 1.

Any ideas? Is the battery selector switch backwards? Maybe I need to check to see what the alternator is actually charging. Not sure how to do that.

Also, this goes back to the old question. Start on battery one then out to see on Both or Battery 2, etc.?

Any comments/feedback will be greatly appreciated.

I just want to drop anchor and catch some fish knowing the boat will start when it's time to leave. I've already had a bad experience with that. Luckily, it started. By the way, I have the 1.7 (120 hp) turbo diesel.

Thanks everyone...
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Trophy Pro 2052 battery setup Apr 15, 2017 02:26 AM #2

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Who knows what a previous owner may have done. Everything should receive power whatever the selection is at the MBSS (Master Battery Selector Switch) unless it's in the off possition. Usually selection #1 is a dedicated starting bank (or single starting battery) reserved for starting the engine when selection #2 (usually the house bank consisting of one or more deep cycle batteries) can't do the job because it's been depleted to far from running whatever while you were at anchor etc.
And I would agree that with this set up you would start on battery #1 head out to sea on battery #2, or both and while at anchor selecting #2. The alternator will be sending its charge current to wherever the MBSS is selected.
Dave
Edmonds, WA
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.030 over-Votec top end-part closed cooled
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www.baylinerownersclub.org/index.php/for...ansom-repair-my-2556
Last Edit: Apr 15, 2017 02:35 AM by builderdude.
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Trophy Pro 2052 battery setup Apr 15, 2017 11:01 AM #3

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Songman wrote:
.............................
Worse, I discovered that the Raymarine electronics only operate under battery 1. There is no power to the multi-function display under batter 2.
OK.... that suggests to me that the MBSS "common" terminal and/or the "common" cable may not be installed correctly.
Regardless of which battery bank is selected, the MBSS should power the "common" cable.
With exception to any direct battery connections (of which should be a NO NO), when the common cable is powered, all 12 vdc demands should be supplied.

I thought Battery Bank 1 was for starting
Typically yes!

and Battery Bank 2 was for running the electronics/navigation lighting (which is where I intended to put the deep cycle).
Typically yes!
But again, please understand that the MBSS is simply a distribution device, in that it directs power from either battery bank to the "Common" terminal and therefor to the "common" cable of which powers the Engine harness and hull harness.

I really don't believe the solution is to put a deep cycle under Battery 1.
Correct!

Any ideas? Is the battery selector switch backwards?
This is easy to test.
Disconnect the POS cable from batt bank #2.
Now select batt bank #1, and see if everything can be powered up.
Do the same for batt bank #2.



Maybe I need to check to see what the alternator is actually charging. Not sure how to do that.
The alternator can't help but to direct it's charge rate to the batt bank that is currently being selected.
In other words, the alternator charge circuit directs the charge rate to the starter motor common cable terminal.
This common cable connects to the MBSS "common" terminal.
When batt bank #1 is being selected, batt bank #1 will receive the alternator charge rate.
Likewise when batt bank #2 is selected.



Also, this goes back to the old question. Start on battery one then out to see on Both or Battery 2, etc.?
That works.... but I don't care for running while ALL/BOTH are selected.
After starting the engine on batt bank #1, the #1 batt bank will easily charge back up during engine warm-up.


Any comments/feedback will be greatly appreciated.

I just want to drop anchor and catch some fish knowing the boat will start when it's time to leave.
This is why we always keep batt bank #1 in Reserve!
Rick E. Portland, Oregon
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Trophy Pro 2052 battery setup Apr 15, 2017 01:39 PM #4

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Thanks for the guidance. I will check out the connections for the MBSS distribution device. This certainly needs to be corrected for safe boating.
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Trophy Pro 2052 battery setup Apr 15, 2017 03:24 PM #5

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Trying to post a diagram (one I stole from Rick) but the site is apparently broken...... :(
Dave
Edmonds, WA
"THE FIX"
'93 Ciera 2556 Mercruiser 5.7 Bravo II
.030 over-Votec top end-part closed cooled
***The rebuild of my 2556***
www.baylinerownersclub.org/index.php/for...ansom-repair-my-2556
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Trophy Pro 2052 battery setup Apr 15, 2017 03:40 PM #6

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This is one scenario for a single engine boat with a #1 and #2 battery bank.

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Rick E. Portland, Oregon
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Twin 270 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
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Trophy Pro 2052 battery setup Apr 15, 2017 03:49 PM #7

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There it is, thanks Rick :)
Dave
Edmonds, WA
"THE FIX"
'93 Ciera 2556 Mercruiser 5.7 Bravo II
.030 over-Votec top end-part closed cooled
***The rebuild of my 2556***
www.baylinerownersclub.org/index.php/for...ansom-repair-my-2556
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Trophy Pro 2052 battery setup Apr 15, 2017 04:18 PM #8

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This forum is great. Thanks so much. :)
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Trophy Pro 2052 battery setup Apr 16, 2017 12:12 AM #9

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Along with the ideas already given check the negative cable from Batt 2 is conected correctly or theres power coming from batt 2 at the helm also unless you want to rewire your whole system dedicated deep cycle batt house bank wont really help you unless you going to run refrigerators / tv / coffee maker etc a battery on either bank with at least 90amp hr and 600cca would be more than enough for a days fishing with the odd overnighter on one side you could always parrel in a third batt
Daniel Drummond.
Waitakere Auckland.
New Zealand.
2252 Hard Top.
Carbed 5.7 alpha one.
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Trophy Pro 2052 battery setup Apr 16, 2017 02:31 PM #10

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Zarn wrote:
1..... Along with the ideas already given check the negative cable from Batt 2 is conected correctly or theres power coming from batt 2 at the helm also unless you want to rewire your whole system

2..... dedicated deep cycle batt house bank wont really help you unless you going to run refrigerators / tv / coffee maker etc

a battery on either bank with at least 90amp hr and 600cca would be more than enough for a days fishing with the odd overnighter on one side


3.... you could always parrel in a third batt

1.... The MBSS selects the bank that is to be used for the entire electrical system.
In other words..... either bank #1 or bank #2 (when selected) will/should provide power (via the "common" cable) for everything that the hull harness feeds.

2.... A HLBB is typically made up from Deep Cycle batteries.

3.....An MBSS will select between two battery banks ONLY.
A third battery installation will simply complicate useage and charging.



Rick E. Portland, Oregon
2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
Twin 270 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
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Trophy Pro 2052 battery setup Apr 16, 2017 07:46 PM #11

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Happy Easter. Here's the latest....

Followed 2850 Bounty's suggestions and determined the selector switch is installed correctly. Condition of common cable connection to be determined.

I put the boat on the battery charger overnight with the switch set to OFF. Removed the charger plug this morning. Battery #1 is over 12vdc. Battery #2 is just over 5vdc. Hmmm..

I removed the battery selector switch from the aft bulkhead (interior near battery) to inspect and perform continuity tests. Unless it's just the Florida sun, I can say I now have power to the console (checked with radio on and also Raymarine C70 display) with bank #2 selected as well as #1 and both. The low voltage on bank #2 soon became an issue for the electronics, and they de-energized. Perhaps something moved, a connection was restored, an internal state of the switch changed, or I am losing it. Also, battery #2 could be bad.

Visual inspection of the back of the switch revealed the following:

- Basically clean cable connections for the age (2006) of the boat.
- Common cable has another medium sized cable on top of it, connected to the same post.
- Bank #1 cable has four (4) small wires (maybe 16 awg) connected to the same post. I don't know their purpose or destination but they each are fused with waterproof fuse holders mounted to the bulkhead. Three have 10 amp fuses. One has a 30 amp fuse. The 30 amp fuse was blown (automobile type) and replaced.

Continuity Inspection:

In most cases, there was completed continuity (zero ohms) across the switch selection post and the common post.
Between the Bank #1 and Bank #2 post, there is about 5 ohms of resistance (not expected). I thought they should be isolated unless BOTH is selected.
There is no continuity between the unselected post and the common post (as expected).

Troubleshooting:

I am charging another battery to put in bank #2 as a final check to see if it will maintain a charge and provide ample service when selected.
I suspect the switch is faulty.
I do not know why additional wiring is added to the switch at bank #1. I assume this voltage is only supplied when bank #1 is selected.

Again, any help or comments would be appreciated.
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Trophy Pro 2052 battery setup Apr 16, 2017 09:33 PM #12

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Songman wrote:
I do not know why additional wiring is added to the switch at bank #1. I assume this voltage is only supplied when bank #1 is selected.
No, the voltage at post #1 (back of selector switch) should always be hot, that main battery cable from post #1 should go strait to the positive post on the battery bank #1. Same goes for post #2.
The additional wires could be for things like a bilge pump float switch (so it is uninterruptible) or a connection from an on board battery charger, anything els should really come off of the common post via an auxiliary fuse panel (keeps things clean and allows for easy addition of future circuits)
Check the negative battery connections as well, bad connections cause all kinds of issues.
Dave
Edmonds, WA
"THE FIX"
'93 Ciera 2556 Mercruiser 5.7 Bravo II
.030 over-Votec top end-part closed cooled
***The rebuild of my 2556***
www.baylinerownersclub.org/index.php/for...ansom-repair-my-2556
Last Edit: Apr 16, 2017 09:35 PM by builderdude.
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Trophy Pro 2052 battery setup Apr 16, 2017 09:49 PM #13

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I'll have to chase those extra wires. There is an onboard charger but it makes little sense to connect it to bank #1 at the switch, as it seems it would only charge that battery. If that's true then that could explain a lot, as battery #2 is problematic.

Yes, the + battery cable from each battery goes directly to the associated post on the back of the switch.
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Trophy Pro 2052 battery setup Apr 16, 2017 10:01 PM #14

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So connecting the onboard charger leads to the post at the MBSS is a much cleaner way to go. As Rick has said many times it avoids the potential rats nest of wiring connections at the battery posts. If your onboard charger is set up to charge multiple battery banks then another wire would be connected to post #2 from the charger, sounds like yours is a single maybe?
Dave
Edmonds, WA
"THE FIX"
'93 Ciera 2556 Mercruiser 5.7 Bravo II
.030 over-Votec top end-part closed cooled
***The rebuild of my 2556***
www.baylinerownersclub.org/index.php/for...ansom-repair-my-2556
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Trophy Pro 2052 battery setup Apr 16, 2017 10:14 PM #15

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I'll investigate further in the upcoming days to figure out what charging system there is on the boat. If it's indeed a single then my battery #2 is not being charged when it's plugged in ashore. But that would be a stupid - haha.
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Trophy Pro 2052 battery setup Apr 17, 2017 01:34 PM #16

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Songman wrote:

Followed 2850 Bounty's suggestions and determined the selector switch is installed correctly. Condition of common cable connection to be determined.

I put the boat on the battery charger overnight with the switch set to OFF. Removed the charger plug this morning. Battery #1 is over 12vdc. Battery #2 is just over 5vdc.
If connected correctly, that may indicate that you have a single bank battery charger.


I removed the battery selector switch from the aft bulkhead (interior near battery) to inspect and perform continuity tests. Unless it's just the Florida sun, I can say I now have power to the console (checked with radio on and also Raymarine C70 display) with bank #2 selected as well as #1 and both.
Yes..... just as how it should be.

The low voltage on bank #2 soon became an issue for the electronics, and they de-energized.
Short of the No Charging issue, you may want to load-test the batteries in bank #2. Perhaps they are bad.
(a wet cell battery that has been sitting for any duration, while even partially dis-charged, will live a short life!)


Perhaps something moved, a connection was restored, an internal state of the switch changed, or I am losing it.
Is this by chance a Red 90 degree sweep Perko MBSS? (IMO..... this would not be a good MBSS)

Also, battery #2 could be bad.
(see above re; load-testing)

Visual inspection of the back of the switch revealed the following:

- Basically clean cable connections for the age (2006) of the boat.
- Common cable has another medium sized cable on top of it, connected to the same post.
Trace this circuit out and see what it feeds!

- Bank #1 cable has four (4) small wires (maybe 16 awg) connected to the same post. I don't know their purpose or destination but they each are fused with waterproof fuse holders mounted to the bulkhead. Three have 10 amp fuses. One has a 30 amp fuse. The 30 amp fuse was blown (automobile type) and replaced.
Please note that by using terminal #1 for these "4 small wires", the person who did this has removed the option for bank #2 alone to power these.
Selecting ALL/BOTH will power them, but that is a less than desireable scenario.


Continuity Inspection:

In most cases, there was completed continuity (zero ohms) across the switch selection post and the common post.
Between the Bank #1 and Bank #2 post, there is about 5 ohms of resistance (not expected). I thought they should be isolated unless BOTH is selected.
Does this MBSS have any additional small terminals for alternator field protection?

There is no continuity between the unselected post and the common post (as expected).
Good!

Troubleshooting:

I am charging another battery to put in bank #2 as a final check to see if it will maintain a charge and provide ample service when selected.
I suspect the switch is faulty.
When you say "switch" are you talking about the MBSS?
We will see; BS (battery switch.... On/Off) and we will see MBSS (main battery selector switch.... OFF- #1- ALL/BOTH - #2)


I do not know why additional wiring is added to the switch at bank #1. I assume this voltage is only supplied when bank #1 is selected.
If speaking about loads only, that is and will be the case when the "common" terminal and "common" cable are being used as designed.
The common terminal and common cable take the selected source's power down to the starter motor terminal.
From the starter motor terminal, the power is then available for the boat's Hull Harness.
(see my image in post #6 again)


Songman wrote:
I'll have to chase those extra wires. There is an onboard charger but it makes little sense to connect it to bank #1 at the switch, as it seems it would only charge that battery. If that's true then that could explain a lot, as battery #2 is problematic.
Please see the image in post #6 again. Note that the OB Charger leads connect directly to the rear MBSS terminals #1 and #2.
For good reason, they do not make a direct battery connection!


Yes, the + battery cable from each battery goes directly to the associated post on the back of the switch.
Suggestion: connect your dedicated "starting" battery to #1 MBSS terminal, and your Deep Cycle batteries to #2 MBSS terminal.


.
Rick E. Portland, Oregon
2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
Twin 270 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set
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Trophy Pro 2052 battery setup Apr 20, 2017 11:10 PM #17

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I found some time to investigate this situation a little further. Actually, I was fortunate enough to find the original owner and speak with him on the phone. He sold the boat to a neighbor and was pretty much disgusted with the care the boat was given by the new owner. I am now owner number three,

Battery Charger - I have confirmed that the boat has a dual battery charger. I followed the cables to each battery and the original owner indicated that it has a trickle charger.

MMBS - I mistakenly referred to the main battery selector switch (MMBS) as a switch. There is no battery switch (BS). The MMBS is NOT a Red 90 degree sweep Perko. It is a GUEST model (1-both-2-off). It does NOT have any additional small terminals for alternator field protection. I will probably replace this with a MMBS from Blue Sea Systems.

MMBS Wiring - The wiring is correct. However, it does include additional wiring (4 small fused wires and additional Common) connected to battery bank #1. The conversation with the original owner reveals the additional wiring is most likely associated with the radar system - which only operates under batter #1. He basically said battery #1 is typically used and battery #2 is reserved for emergencies. The wiring connection to battery bank #1 was intentional. He mentioned that there is no value in running on BOTH because the batteries will not fully charge under that scenario. The radar is a separate issue but he indicated that there is a procedure for turning on the radar system and that is operates under 48vdc. It must be energized with the engine running to avoid impacts to the batteries. The boat is 12vdc but there is a transformer located near the batter with provides power to the radar.

Action Plan - the plan is to replace the MMBS and batteries as needed (whenever money is free).
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Trophy Pro 2052 battery setup Apr 21, 2017 02:07 PM #18

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Songman wrote:
Battery Charger - I have confirmed that the boat has a dual battery charger.
That is great!

I followed the cables to each battery
The battery charger's charge leads should connect to the rear of the MBSS terminals #1 and #2..... not directly to the batteries!
(see my image again)


and the original owner indicated that it has a trickle charger.
Trickle Chargers are battery killers. You'll do much better with a charger using today's Smart Charge Technology.

MMBS - I mistakenly referred to the main battery selector switch (MMBS) as a switch.
I'm not familiar with MMBS.
However, MBSS = Main Battery Selector Switch.


There is no battery switch (BS). The MMBS is NOT a Red 90 degree sweep Perko. It is a GUEST model (1-both-2-off).
OK..... that would be an MBSS (Main Battery Selector Switch).

It does NOT have any additional small terminals for alternator field protection.
Not necessary today!


MMBS Wiring -
Did you mean to say MBSS cabling?

The wiring is correct. However, it does include additional wiring (4 small fused wires and additional Common) connected to battery bank #1.
I may not be following you. Could you please draw this out in schematic form and post it?

The conversation with the original owner reveals the additional wiring is most likely associated with the radar system - which only operates under batter #1. He basically said battery #1 is typically used and battery #2 is reserved for emergencies.
While there is no rule pertaining to this, battery #1 is typically the Starting Battery bank, of which is typically 1 battery only...... hence #1.
The HLBB (house load batt bank) is typically made up of multiple batteries (2 or more)....... hence #2.


The wiring connection to battery bank #1 was intentional. He mentioned that there is no value in running on BOTH because the batteries will not fully charge under that scenario. The radar is a separate issue but he indicated that there is a procedure for turning on the radar system and that is operates under 48vdc. It must be energized with the engine running to avoid impacts to the batteries. The boat is 12vdc but there is a transformer located near the batter with provides power to the radar.
DC current is not transformable. It would require being inverted to AC and then rectified to DC.
This becomes a huge inefficient use of electrical energy.
:whistle:

Action Plan - the plan is to replace the MMBS and batteries as needed (whenever money is free).
Forgive me..... but I have to ask....... what is MMBS?
Rick E. Portland, Oregon
2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
Twin 270 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set
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Trophy Pro 2052 battery setup Apr 21, 2017 03:12 PM #19

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Ha ha

There is no MMBS. I meant MBSS. :silly:
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