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TOPIC: Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues

Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 05 Apr 2016 12:06 #26

  • tidelands
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What model Bayliner did you purchase? The colors are gel coat not paint. Only boats with eating, sleeping and toilet accommaditons can be qualified as a second home and then be considered a tax deduction. FYI, tiny stress cracks in gel coat are superficial and not in the fiberglass. They can be easily corrected by a gel coat tech. Hope this clears up the issue.

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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 05 Apr 2016 23:20 #27

  • metz123
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I ordered my element XL at the end of February and it's scheduled to be at the dealer on April 5th. You can be darn sure I'm going to check it closely before accepting it. Fiberglass cracking I can identify but what would a gel coat defect look like? I've only bought used boats in the past and was mostly concerned about deck softness and engine compression readings and upholstery tears.

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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 06 Apr 2016 01:11 #28

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tidelands wrote: What model Bayliner did you purchase? The colors are gel coat not paint. Only boats with eating, sleeping and toilet accommaditons can be qualified as a second home and then be considered a tax deduction. FYI, tiny stress cracks in gel coat are superficial and not in the fiberglass. They can be easily corrected by a gel coat tech. Hope this clears up the issue.



I ordered a 190 deck boat. I had black paint. Can you post a picture of what gel coat cracks are compared to fiberglass cracks?

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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 06 Apr 2016 01:13 #29

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metz123 wrote: I ordered my element XL at the end of February and it's scheduled to be at the dealer on April 5th. You can be darn sure I'm going to check it closely before accepting it. Fiberglass cracking I can identify but what would a gel coat defect look like? I've only bought used boats in the past and was mostly concerned about deck softness and engine compression readings and upholstery tears.


I ordered a deck boat on March 26th. Did yours come in on time? I will be bringing some friends along to have extra sets of eyes looking for fiberglass cuts.

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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 06 Apr 2016 02:07 #30

  • Vic Stewart
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Cancel your check..pronto.....do not accept that boat..it was most likely built on a Monday or a Friday. You will never be happy with it.

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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 06 Apr 2016 02:21 #31

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Vic Stewart wrote: Cancel your check..pronto.....do not accept that boat..it was most likely built on a Monday or a Friday. You will never be happy with it.



What the heck does this mean?

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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 06 Apr 2016 03:39 #32

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Workers at the plant on Monday are bitchy and Friday they do not give a crap about the boat they are working on because they are thinking about the weekend. Only good jobs get done on tues to thurs.

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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 06 Apr 2016 03:59 #33

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Attatoy wrote: Workers at the plant on Monday are bitchy and Friday they do not give a crap about the boat they are working on because they are thinking about the weekend. Only good jobs get done on tues to thurs.



Lol... I'll check to make sure it was built on a Wednesday.

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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 06 Apr 2016 12:33 #34

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Attatoy wrote: Workers at the plant on Monday are bitchy and Friday they do not give a crap about the boat they are working on because they are thinking about the weekend. Only good jobs get done on tues to thurs.


These wives tales need to die, and I see no reason not to put a bullet in it here.

I assure you Bayliner has output metrics that most boats need to adhere to. BOats like the Element in question are edge cases that managed to get past Bayliner's QC procesess, and that's not an excuse. But to make blanket statements like MOnday or Friday boats is misleading, and I think that pretty much died in the 1970s.

Another point: Bayliner generally does not build boats to order. They have a limited model mix with defined metrics on what to build, when, and where to ship them to. In cases where you "order" a boat, you are most likely either claiming a pre-spec'ed boat from a "to build" list, or the boat already exists and they are rerouting it from another location. Then there are edge cases where a boat with specific equipment is well and truly a "custom build", and those take the longest to deliver.

In the Element's case, they likely ship the hulls bare and then they are powered at the dealer level.
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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 06 Apr 2016 12:35 #35

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+1 on all points...

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Hell, Michigan (yes we really live in a city named "Hell" in Michigan)
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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 06 Apr 2016 14:53 #36

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Different companies certainly do have procedures for quality control, but sometimes things slip through the cracks. I bought a new Mazda Tribute several years ago. it must have been one of the first units off the factory floor (it was a new model that had just come out) or it had some issue that took a while to resolve at the factory. When I got it home and opened it up to put my stuff in it, it had piles of candy wrappers and empty soda cans in the spare tire area, and trash under the seats. I got it all cleaned out. A year later it was returned to the company as a lemon with multiple problems that the company simply could not fix despite many attempts (it lived at the dealer almost as much as at my home). The lesson from that was to keep very good records of problems, fixes, and correspondence with the company.

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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 06 Apr 2016 15:44 #37

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TPerk274 wrote: Different companies certainly do have procedures for quality control, but sometimes things slip through the cracks. I bought a new Mazda Tribute several years ago. it must have been one of the first units off the factory floor (it was a new model that had just come out) or it had some issue that took a while to resolve at the factory. When I got it home and opened it up to put my stuff in it, it had piles of candy wrappers and empty soda cans in the spare tire area, and trash under the seats. I got it all cleaned out. A year later it was returned to the company as a lemon with multiple problems that the company simply could not fix despite many attempts (it lived at the dealer almost as much as at my home). The lesson from that was to keep very good records of problems, fixes, and correspondence with the company.


Minor quibble, but your issue was with Ford, not Mazda. The Tribute was a rebadged Ford Escape.

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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 06 Apr 2016 17:57 #38

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Download_Complete wrote:

TPerk274 wrote: Different companies certainly do have procedures for quality control, but sometimes things slip through the cracks. I bought a new Mazda Tribute several years ago. it must have been one of the first units off the factory floor (it was a new model that had just come out) or it had some issue that took a while to resolve at the factory. When I got it home and opened it up to put my stuff in it, it had piles of candy wrappers and empty soda cans in the spare tire area, and trash under the seats. I got it all cleaned out. A year later it was returned to the company as a lemon with multiple problems that the company simply could not fix despite many attempts (it lived at the dealer almost as much as at my home). The lesson from that was to keep very good records of problems, fixes, and correspondence with the company.


Minor quibble, but your issue was with Ford, not Mazda. The Tribute was a rebadged Ford Escape.


DC-- So as a new boat owner, when I go to the dealership to inspect the boat, what should I be looking for?

I actually have never met my salesman in person. This company is the only Bayliner Dealer in Arkansas and is about 3 and a half hours away from my home. I filled out the Bayliner "build a boat" section on the website and it sent an email stating that someone from this company, since it was closest, would call me. The next day, the salesman called. The salesman stated that this is considered a special order boat and that once I put down the deposit, he would order it. After about 3 days of phone conversations and researching the company, I mailed him a check.

As of now the plan is that I will drive over an inspect the boat when it gets in. After a short drive on the local lake there, if all goes well, we will discuss the delivery date of the boats' new home. Is this not a normal time frame of events in purchasing a boat?

There are several things I wonder about-
1) I want to make sure it has everything I ordered on it.
2) I have heard stories of guys asking dealers to throw this or that in and I'm wondering if I should ask for things like basic life jackets etc.
3) I wonder if this boat is already made and is sitting in NC somewhere and the dealer is just waiting on it to get there so they can adjust the boat to "my special order."

Any advice would be helpful.

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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 06 Apr 2016 18:36 #39

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When I bought my boat I made them put in Depth gauge. They should include the basic coast guard stuff like flares, life jackets, fire extinguisher and Anchor. I think those are required to be part of the sale of any boat from dealer.
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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 06 Apr 2016 18:52 #40

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Technically you are correct, however legally my issue was with Mazda. They (or the dealer representing Mazda) cashed my check when I bought it, and I cashed their check when they took it back. How they dealt with Ford was their problem, not mine.

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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 06 Apr 2016 19:14 #41

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My order sheet has:
Bilge Pump
Depth Finder
Windshield
Swim Platform
Shower
Head
Teak mat flooring
Bimini Top
Desert Sand
Bow Filler Cushions
Ski Tow Pylon
Stainless Steel


I'll see if I can get some fenders, life jackets, anchors (I would like 2), and a fire extinguisher.

If they can (for additional cost), I would see if they will add an ECO propeller. From my understanding the only thing else I'll need is a battery charger (looking at CTEK 7002); everything I add are toys.

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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 06 Apr 2016 19:17 #42

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Waterdowg wrote: When I bought my boat I made them put in Depth gauge. They should include the basic coast guard stuff like flares, life jackets, fire extinguisher and Anchor. I think those are required to be part of the sale of any boat from dealer.


I totally agree. When I took delivery (in Canada) they gave me (without asking) the above mentioned items less the flares. But, added the rescue throw float rope. Maybe the flares are not required in Canada for my size boat. Just remembered, they also gave me a floating key chain that has my name and the boat registration number. Very handy for whoever services your boat. They just look at the key and see right away which boat it belongs to and who owns it.
Don't forget, they should walk you through every inch of the boat and explain every switch etcetra.
I actually sat in the boat, on the trailer while we were going over every thing. Also, ask for the white plastic shipping cover and straps. They usually throw these away. However, they are great for winter storage. Call them right away so that they will not tear it when removing it and won't discard it. These are FREE to you. The attached photo shows this heavy-duty plastic cover on my boat for storage.
I hope you enjoy yours as much as I enjoy mine.

Take care, on and off the water
Oakplank

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Last Edit: by oakplank. Reason: Added picture

Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 06 Apr 2016 19:47 #43

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The attached photo shows this heavy-duty plastic cover on my boat for storage.
Take care, on and off the water
Oakplank[/quote]

Thanks! He did talk me out of getting a cover and said that this plastic would last up to 3 years...

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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 06 Apr 2016 20:19 #44

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That is the build sheet from Bayliner. The other stuff is the dealers responsibility.

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2016 Bayliner 215 Deck Boat
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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 06 Apr 2016 22:28 #45

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A couple of things to add....

One, If you're talking about the dealer in Ft. Smith, I actually looked at a boat there before I bought one closer to me from the dealer in Junction City, KS. They seemed like good guys and wanted to earn my business but the boat they had at the time did not have a number of features I wanted and the local one had everything. Also a bit cleaner paying sales tax with the purchase here in state as opposed to after the fact.

Second point...I am a manufacturing engineer, currently in automotive but was in aerospace for 20+ years, both of which are at least similar to boat building. I've only been to one boat factory (Cobalt so a little upscale from Bayliner) but all things being similar, there is no such thing as a Monday or Friday boat. Portions of the boat and all of it's components have been built on different days and the build process itself has a start to finish lead time measured in days. The takt time or demand matched rate maybe one per hour for example but there may be 30 stations to accomplish this, each doing an hour's worth of work or cure time or drying time, you get the idea.

On the order thing...I talked to the Bayliner rep who services our dealer directly...All boats are indeed built to order. These orders are generated by the dealers sometimes for stock units and sometimes for specific customers. The element is powered at the factory. there are very few variations on an XL for example beyond the gel coat color and interior upholstery color (which there is very little of, mostly drop in pads). The fishing package is the biggest variation in the build process (not the F18 but the std XL) as it adds a live well and some additional wiring for trolling motor etc. Everything else graphics, options are added at the end of the process. We looked into special ordering a boat and we could have changed one that was allocated to our dealer during the build process (rep said is actually 2 week lead time) BUT the problem was shipping. To maximize shipping efficiency they will only send a truck from the Mexico plant to any certain region of the US when the truck is full. So for example, it was mid June, I got a slot (already allocated to my dealer for a stock unit) the first week in July and the anticipated delivery date was "between 7/20 and mid August". So I scrapped the idea of a red Xl and bought the nice black one off the dealer showroom. Who wants to lose 2 prime months of use?

Oh and I negotiated a small discount off of list price and had my dealer throw in 5 nice life jackets, a rope, a tube and the usual safety gear required to get on the water. It wasn't a ton of stuff but altogether maybe worth $500 plus another few hundred off list price.

Dealer is Beacon Marine in Junction City, KS. They are good to work with.
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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 07 Apr 2016 00:07 #46

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seadoorider wrote: A couple of things to add....

One, If you're talking about the dealer in Ft. Smith, I actually looked at a boat there before I bought one closer to me from the dealer in Junction City, KS. They seemed like good guys and wanted to earn my business but the boat they had at the time did not have a number of features I wanted and the local one had everything. Also a bit cleaner paying sales tax with the purchase here in state as opposed to after the fact.

Second point...I am a manufacturing engineer, currently in automotive but was in aerospace for 20+ years, both of which are at least similar to boat building. I've only been to one boat factory (Cobalt so a little upscale from Bayliner) but all things being similar, there is no such thing as a Monday or Friday boat. Portions of the boat and all of it's components have been built on different days and the build process itself has a start to finish lead time measured in days. The takt time or demand matched rate maybe one per hour for example but there may be 30 stations to accomplish this, each doing an hour's worth of work or cure time or drying time, you get the idea.

On the order thing...I talked to the Bayliner rep who services our dealer directly...All boats are indeed built to order. These orders are generated by the dealers sometimes for stock units and sometimes for specific customers. The element is powered at the factory. there are very few variations on an XL for example beyond the gel coat color and interior upholstery color (which there is very little of, mostly drop in pads). The fishing package is the biggest variation in the build process (not the F18 but the std XL) as it adds a live well and some additional wiring for trolling motor etc. Everything else graphics, options are added at the end of the process. We looked into special ordering a boat and we could have changed one that was allocated to our dealer during the build process (rep said is actually 2 week lead time) BUT the problem was shipping. To maximize shipping efficiency they will only send a truck from the Mexico plant to any certain region of the US when the truck is full. So for example, it was mid June, I got a slot (already allocated to my dealer for a stock unit) the first week in July and the anticipated delivery date was "between 7/20 and mid August". So I scrapped the idea of a red Xl and bought the nice black one off the dealer showroom. Who wants to lose 2 prime months of use?

Oh and I negotiated a small discount off of list price and had my dealer throw in 5 nice life jackets, a rope, a tube and the usual safety gear required to get on the water. It wasn't a ton of stuff but altogether maybe worth $500 plus another few hundred off list price.

Dealer is Beacon Marine in Junction City, KS. They are good to work with.


That's exactly who I am talking about in Ft. Smith. Seemed to be very pleased and easy to work with.

This was helpful. I'm hoping mine still arrives on time.

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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 07 Apr 2016 00:27 #47

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When I bought my used 2012 185 last summer from a dealer here in SE Michigan, they automatically gave me (4) life jackets, (1) throwable PFD, and anchor and anchor line, (2) dock lines, fire extinguisher. No flares, but I think that may be for "big lake" or ocean going vessels....further than a few miles from a shore...even if you can negotiate for your troubles a season or two of winterization, oil and lube changes, would be good. These marine mechanics, or I should say what the dealers are posting as "hourly rate" is a rip off....I can buy the "goodies" and "toys" online and save money, but servicing the boat can get pricey quickly on everyday maintenance and pm stuff if going to an authorized dealer...

I am in the WRONG business. My marine mechanic is a retired marine mechanic who worked for the dealer that I bought our boat at. He and his grown son have a marine mechanic business and charge $40/HR across the board. $60 to winterize, change lower unit gear oil, motor oil and plugs...I throw him an extra $100 once i put the boat in the water, and he stores my trailer all summer, repacks my bearings and makes sure it is ready to roll in the fall...the dealer where I bought the boat from charges $300 to do the same winterization and oil changes on my boat....no brainer....

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Hell, Michigan (yes we really live in a city named "Hell" in Michigan)
2012 BR 185 - 3.0 TKS
1999 Chaparral 233 Sunesta Ltd., 5.0 Volvo
1985 Harris Flotebote Classic 240
1993 Yamaha Waverunner III VXR
1993 Yamaha Waverunner III
1995 Yamaha Waverunner III GP
1995 Yamaha Waverunner III VXR PRO

Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 07 Apr 2016 12:46 #48

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jmayes wrote:

Download_Complete wrote:

TPerk274 wrote: Different companies certainly do have procedures for quality control, but sometimes things slip through the cracks. I bought a new Mazda Tribute several years ago. it must have been one of the first units off the factory floor (it was a new model that had just come out) or it had some issue that took a while to resolve at the factory. When I got it home and opened it up to put my stuff in it, it had piles of candy wrappers and empty soda cans in the spare tire area, and trash under the seats. I got it all cleaned out. A year later it was returned to the company as a lemon with multiple problems that the company simply could not fix despite many attempts (it lived at the dealer almost as much as at my home). The lesson from that was to keep very good records of problems, fixes, and correspondence with the company.


Minor quibble, but your issue was with Ford, not Mazda. The Tribute was a rebadged Ford Escape.


DC-- So as a new boat owner, when I go to the dealership to inspect the boat, what should I be looking for?

I actually have never met my salesman in person. This company is the only Bayliner Dealer in Arkansas and is about 3 and a half hours away from my home. I filled out the Bayliner "build a boat" section on the website and it sent an email stating that someone from this company, since it was closest, would call me. The next day, the salesman called. The salesman stated that this is considered a special order boat and that once I put down the deposit, he would order it. After about 3 days of phone conversations and researching the company, I mailed him a check.

As of now the plan is that I will drive over an inspect the boat when it gets in. After a short drive on the local lake there, if all goes well, we will discuss the delivery date of the boats' new home. Is this not a normal time frame of events in purchasing a boat?

There are several things I wonder about-
1) I want to make sure it has everything I ordered on it.
2) I have heard stories of guys asking dealers to throw this or that in and I'm wondering if I should ask for things like basic life jackets etc.
3) I wonder if this boat is already made and is sitting in NC somewhere and the dealer is just waiting on it to get there so they can adjust the boat to "my special order."

Any advice would be helpful.


This is one thing that I would not ask for, but demand. And that is an automatic float switch for the bilge pump. I contacted Bayliner directly and told them this was a safety issue and they authorized my dealer to install a float switch at no charge.

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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 07 Apr 2016 14:54 #49

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Yep you'd think the automatic bilge would be a standard. Like the fuel gage and a few other items it was probably axed to save a buck or two and get the boat down to a price point. For us it hasn't been too big of a deal as we rarely leave our boat in the water without us being in it or close by and never overnight. Seems like an easy upgrade though, if I was buying it again I might ask the dealer to throw it in.

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Attempted to Pickup Our New Element XL...Quality Issues 07 Apr 2016 15:02 #50

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RobMick wrote: When I bought my used 2012 185 last summer from a dealer here in SE Michigan, they automatically gave me (4) life jackets, (1) throwable PFD, and anchor and anchor line, (2) dock lines, fire extinguisher. No flares, but I think that may be for "big lake" or ocean going vessels....further than a few miles from a shore...even if you can negotiate for your troubles a season or two of winterization, oil and lube changes, would be good. These marine mechanics, or I should say what the dealers are posting as "hourly rate" is a rip off....I can buy the "goodies" and "toys" online and save money, but servicing the boat can get pricey quickly on everyday maintenance and pm stuff if going to an authorized dealer...

I am in the WRONG business. My marine mechanic is a retired marine mechanic who worked for the dealer that I bought our boat at. He and his grown son have a marine mechanic business and charge $40/HR across the board. $60 to winterize, change lower unit gear oil, motor oil and plugs...I throw him an extra $100 once i put the boat in the water, and he stores my trailer all summer, repacks my bearings and makes sure it is ready to roll in the fall...the dealer where I bought the boat from charges $300 to do the same winterization and oil changes on my boat....no brainer....


The problem with boats (in most areas with a real winter) is the same as the motorcycle businesses I was in for years. Cars have the great advantage of being used and needing repairs, 12 moths a year. Things that are seasonal, have a fairly short Window for making a living. We'd have a couple of permanent mechanics, and the rest were hired in the spring. You're often in competition with other shops for the better ones. We'd go from near zero shop business to insane, as soon as the weather warmed up (and that varies, sometimes by a month or more), then it's all over when the weather cools down. Finding a retired mechanic is great if you can get one. The marina has to cover 12 months of bills and overhead. Not to say that some aren't the most ethical, or cost friendly, but having worked many years in a seasonal industry, remember that there is a long period of little to no income that goes along with that generous hourly wage.
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1996 2252 LS Capri Cuddy Cabin. Merc. 5.7L . Port Perry, Ontario, Canada.
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